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January 22, 2015

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Scott Fruehwald

Do the in-house bar courses use time that should be spent learning other things?

anon

Do you have any evidence that increasing the bar passage rate for the kinds of students admitted to such a low ranked school makes these students decent lawyers?

in other words, just pumping them full of the specific data needed to pass a particular exam just in advance of the exam doesn't tell me anything about what kind of lawyers they will be.

It does keep Western in business, I suppose.

David Frakt

Scott F - Typically 3Ls have plenty of room in their schedule for elective courses, so a for-credit bar prep course would supplant one of these.

Anon - There are several hurdles to becoming a lawyer. You need a JD from an accredited school, you have to pass the MPRE, you have to pass the character and fitness certification process, and you have to pass the bar. Your suggestion is that an in-house bar prep course might help students who are not really smart enough to be lawyers to become lawyers. I think of these programs more as helping students who are smart enough to become lawyers to become lawyers. While some kinds of work that attorneys do require a very high level of intellectual firepower, many kinds of law practice do not. I believe students of modest intellectual ability who demonstrate the drive and work ethic needed to become lawyers will probably make perfectly decent lawyers, but I don't know of any way of measuring this. Law schools that are admitting students of modest ability and charging them very high tuition rates should be obligated to do everything possible to help these students realize their dream.

JM

David, the question has been posed to your numerous times now, and given the topic of this post, I think now is as good a time as any to answer it: what benefit is passing the bar exam when there is almost no chance for the great majority of graduates of these schools will ever obtain jobs as lawyers?

I hope you realize that there are tens of thousands of unemployed recent law graduates from top 100 law schools for whom passing the bar was easy.

David Frakt

JM -

I consider it to be a massive overstatement to say that "there is almost no chance for the great majority of graduates of these schools will ever obtain jobs as lawyers." I think it is fair to say that many graduates of lower ranking law schools will find it difficult to find employment immediately upon graduation and passing the bar. Students who do poorly at middle ranked schools will also have difficulty finding employment right away. I realize that there is a glut of recently graduated lawyers from the oversized graduating classes of 2012, 2013 and 2014 who have had great difficulty finding jobs, many of whom are unemployed, underemployed, or who were forced to take jobs that did not require a JD. But there is no support for the assertion that the "great majority" will NEVER obtain jobs as lawyers. Law schools are not guarantors of employment, they are providers of legal education. Law schools do not control, and can't predict, the future legal economy. So long as law schools accurately report employment data and do not mislead students about their realistic job prospects, I don't see any problem with giving students who have a reasonable probability of success in law school and on the bar exam a chance to pursue a legal education. (As you know, I do have a problem with letting in students who do not have a reasonable probability of success.) Prospective law students are capable of understanding the legal employment market that they are entering into, and it appears to me that they do. The overall poor prospects for employment are the reason that fewer and fewer college graduates are applying to law school. The historic decline in enrollment has led some to conclude that the job prospects for students entering law school now will actually be quite good, since demand may start to outstrip supply by the time they graduate. Other commentators feel that the legal employment market has permanently altered and those jobs will never come back. I am not an economist so don't feel qualified to make a prediction one way or the other. What I believe everyone can agree on is that there are huge unmet demands for legal services in the United States, with a large percentage of the population unable to access basic legal assistance. So, I believe there are opportunities for lawyers to find meaningful work, even if it means opening their own practice. Some small towns in American now offer incredible sweetheart deals to doctors to come to their towns and serve as general practitioners. Perhaps some municipalities might offer similar incentives for lawyers to open a practice in their town.

No, breh.

David, this is extremely nitpicky on my part, and I don't think it was intentional on your part, but I just wanted to point out that people tend to improperly throw out the word "demand" a lot in connection with the justice gap, when (I think) they mean something else.

The problem with the "unmet demands" language is that "demand" implies both a willingness and ability to pay for something. The justice gap issue is that, although people may well benefit from certain legal services, they either cannot or will not pay the market price for those services. At some point, I think, you have to assume people are acting rationally -- the market price for whatever legal services are available sometimes will not be worth paying, particularly to someone without much income who needs to, e.g., buy food.

The problem for lawyers with respect to providing legal services at a lower price point is that, at the price level that the "unmet demands" population can afford, lawyers are, in large part, going to try to find another line of work, because, hey, gotta pay the bills/loans. Even assuming they could find clients, they may well have a difficult time finding clients who actually pay you too. And that is to say nothing of the risks (financial, ethical, malpractice etc.) inherent in a recent grad opening up his or her own practice.

So, what I think you're inferring, and what a lot of others are saying, is that there may well be a market opportunity with respect to an unspecified lower price point for legal services. Which, hey, I think you probably have a point. But I don't think that really helps anybody out unless we can think up some other sort of structure other than unemployed grads taking a gamble on opening up a practice. Maybe the real solution is a Civil Gideon thing, or some sort of hybrid Legal Aid/public interest firm model subsidized by the government/bar. I just don't think we've even slightly moved towards that, though, as a profession.

That was a bit of a ramble, but hopefully it made sense.

JillyFromPhilly

Well said No, breh.

David,

For someone who has written about the psychological and economic devastation that accompanies failing the bar exam, I am surprised at your apathy toward the thousands of law graduates and bar exam passers annually who are unable to put their law degrees to use in any meaningful way, while carrying enormous amounts of debt.

In one post you say both:

"Prospective law students are capable of understanding the legal employment market that they are entering into, and it appears to me that they do"

and

"Other commentators feel that the legal employment market has permanently altered and those jobs will never come back. I am not an economist so don't feel qualified to make a prediction one way or the other"

How are prospective law students, mostly juniors and seniors in college, able to capably understand the legal market and make accurate predictions about their prospects at graduation when you are unable to predict the future job market because you are not an economist? Are they all economists?

When you say that law schools should admit any student with a reasonable probability of success in law school, are you arguing that there need not be any kind of relationship between the number of law school graduates and the number of entry level lawyer positions? Law schools have no obligation to their students, graduates and the legal profession to refrain from flooding the market?

Thanks.

JM

"I consider it to be a massive overstatement to say that 'there is almost no chance for the great majority of graduates of these schools will ever obtain jobs as lawyers.' I think it is fair to say that many graduates of lower ranking law schools will find it difficult to find employment immediately upon graduation and passing the bar."

They will only become less employable as attorneys with each passing day. What possible logic suggests otherwise?


"Law schools are not guarantors of employment, they are providers of legal education."

There it is: caveat emptor. This is where it always ends up. At least prospectives have a right to know how little responsiblity school's feel they have for their student's futures.


"Prospective law students are capable of understanding the legal employment market that they are entering into, and it appears to me that they do."

Just a patently false self-serving statement. Provide one rational reason for enrolling in FCLS this coming year at even half tuition where over three quarters of the graduating class is unemployed or in some sort of part time/short term gig. There is none.

"What I believe everyone can agree on is that there are huge unmet demands for legal services in the United States, with a large percentage of the population unable to access basic legal assistance. So, I believe there are opportunities for lawyers to find meaningful work, even if it means opening their own practice."

Are you familiar with Armatya Sen's theory that famines are never a result of food shortage but instead are a result of poverty? Apply that to this case.


"Some small towns in American now offer incredible sweetheart deals to doctors to come to their towns and serve as general practitioners. Perhaps some municipalities might offer similar incentives for lawyers to open a practice in their town."

In the year 2015, no one equates lawyers with doctors in terms of necessity or prestige. The former is due to alternatives like legalzoom and the latter is due to the subprime JD open enrollment phenomenon that you seem to support.

anon

"What I believe everyone can agree on is that there are huge unmet demands for legal services in the United States, with a large percentage of the population unable to access basic legal assistance." David

"Maybe the real solution is a Civil Gideon thing, or some sort of hybrid Legal Aid/public interest firm model subsidized by the government/bar." No, breh.

Finally, we are hovering around getting somewhere. If only the legal academy could see that its proper role in society is stymied by the current crop of "rock stars" running things. If only they concerned themselves, first and always, with the practice of law and improving the legal systems in America, there would be a chance to apply all that "knowledge generation" to making the legal system function better, for graduates and their communities, and not just for the BigLaw firms that serve "Wall Street," not main street.

The graduates of our elite law schools have done, and are doing just a wonderful job there, thanks to the ethics and values elite law schools have instilled in their graduates. While the elite faculties in T14 law schools gaze in the mirror and see only beauty and competence, their rapacious grads have helped "Wall Street" to destroy our economy and the middle class – one effect, the vast majority of Americans go underserved and law school graduates remain unemployed.

It is just delicious when we hear these paragons of virtue lecture on the “market” and the inability of the middle class to pay for legal services, after all they have done to create this circumstance. Don’t expect anything productive from these folks.

Unfortunately, the lower ranked law schools, where David seems to focus, see themselves as the embodiment of everything that characterizes the T14. They emulate their mores, values and goals. They blame their students for not being them. And, they ignore all the good they might be doing in the community in order to pretend that they, too, are persons who would have earned millions in BigLaw but for their “sacrifice” to join legal academia. They, too, are “rock stars” and don't seem to get it.

If the vast majority of law schools decided to serve the vast majority of America, instead of their vanity and distaste for lawyers and the practice of law, then the situation would turn around very quickly.

David Frakt

No, breh -

I supposed I could have said there is is a massive unmet need for legal services, as opposed to a massive unmet demand, but I believe it is also true that there is a massive unmet demand. Every legal clinic and legal aid organization I know of is overwhelmed with requests for their services and must turn away many potential clients. I would like to see much greater funding for legal services/legal aid providers. Ideally, I would like to see a national service model, where students who agree to provide legal services to underserved communities for three years after graduation would receive a reasonable living stipend and significant loan forgiveness from the federal government. At the end of the three years, these lawyers would have enough connections and experience to land a job or perhaps start their own solo or small firm practice. You are probably right that this is mostly a pipe dream right now, but as there is an increasing recognition of income inequality and the justice gap, perhaps there will be a growing impetus do to something about it.

David Frakt

JM and JillyFromPhilly -

I am not apathetic at all to recent graduates and bar exam passers who can't find jobs and carry large debt burdens. I feel very bad for them, but I don't know what I or anyone else can do about it, other than advocating for more generous unemployment benefits, or perhaps some leniency in loan repayments. Suggesting that law schools should simply stop admitting students until the backlog of unemployed recent graduates have all been hired is not a realistic solution.

You ask whether law schools have an obligation to their students, graduates and the legal profession to refrain from flooding the market? In a word, "no" with one exception, which I will address in a moment. I have advocated that law schools should shrink their entering classes rather than lower their standards. If every law school did this, it would go a long way toward solving the lawyer surplus problem. But the idea that law schools should only admit as many students as they can be confident of placing in a JD required job three years later is completely unrealistic. First of all, the market for lawyers is national. No single law school "floods" the market. Your solution would require 200 law schools to agree each year on how many lawyers will be needed in three years and then collude with each other to divide up the students among themselves, which would be illegal. I also have not said that "law schools should admit ANY student with a reasonable probability of success in law school." I have said law schools should admit ONLY students with a reasonable probability of success in law school, which is what the ABA standard requires, but which, unfortunately, in my opinion, the ABA is not enforcing.

The Exception
The one exception to my general belief that law schools have no duty not to enroll students to avoid flooding the market is with new law schools. New law schools tend to attract students from the local area or the region, since, by definition, the law school does not yet have a national reputation, and it takes a while to get full accreditation. New law schools with evening or part-time programs tend to especially draw students from the local area. New law schools do not have a large alumni base which can serve as a pipeline for jobs for new graduates. Thus, if a new law schools grow too fast, there is a significant danger that the school will flood the local market with too many of its own graduates, who will not be able to be absorbed into the job market. The two clearest examples of this are Charlotte School of Law and Florida Coastal School of Law, which grew at an astronomical rate in the 2005-2010 timeframe, becoming two of the largest law schools in the country. Both of these schools flooded their local markets with their own graduates, which together with the poor overall reputation of the schools, and the overall slump in the legal economy, has contributed to the dismal employment statistics at these schools. In contrast, universities that have opened law schools in recent years with a focus on quality, such as UC Irvine and Drexel, started small and grew their student bodies slowly. These schools have not flooded the market, even though they operate in highly competitive markets with numerous law schools, and their post-graduate employment statistics reflect that.


Caveat Emptor
JM accuses me of simply falling back on caveat emptor. This is an unfair critique of my views. I have advocated for far more accurate and granular consumer data than the ABA requires, pointing out why the data currently required to be reported can be incomplete and misleading. I have even called for criminal investigations of InfiLaw and other predatory schools. But yes, ultimately, in a free country and a free market economy, people are responsible for making their own decisions, good or bad. So long as they were not misled by a law school engaging in deceptive practices, I do not think it is fair to blame their law school for their inability to find employment immediately after graduation. I am concerned about schools that take advantage of unsophisticated, vulnerable consumers. But just because college seniors may be young, does not mean that they are stupid, or have no resources at their disposal. College students have access to a lot of smart people: their professors, pre-law advisors, career planning and placement personnel, and their parents, just to name a few, and they are quite savvy about conducting research on the internet. There is plenty of information available about the difficulties that recent law school graduates have faced in finding work.

JM says: "Just a patently false self-serving statement. Provide one rational reason for enrolling in FCLS this coming year at even half tuition where over three quarters of the graduating class is unemployed or in some sort of part time/short term gig. There is none."

I think it is highly ironic that InfiLaw considers me public enemy # 1 because of my harsh criticism of their admission practices, and yet JM seems to suggest that I am encouraging people to enroll at Florida Coastal. Just to be clear, I would not encourage anyone to attend FCSL if they were admitted to a more prestigious school. This is not because of any concerns over the quality of instruction at FCSL, but because of the job prospects for FCSL graduates.
If a prospective law student applied to several schools and was only admitted at FCSL because their grades and LSAT scores were too low to get in elsewhere, I would probably
encourage that student to consider another career.

Barry

David Frakt: "No, breh -

I supposed I could have said there is is a massive unmet need for legal services, as opposed to a massive unmet demand, but I believe it is also true that there is a massive unmet demand."

No, there is not. We are talking jobs, and jobs require paying clients (one way or the other).

" Every legal clinic and legal aid organization I know of is overwhelmed with requests for their services and must turn away many potential clients.

I would like to see much greater funding for legal services/legal aid providers."

So would I. Considering that one party is 100% against this....


" Ideally, I would like to see a national service model, where students who agree to provide legal services to underserved communities for three years after graduation would receive a reasonable living stipend and significant loan forgiveness from the federal government. "

What we've seen for the past several years is cuts to anything which resembles that, either public or private.


"At the end of the three years, these lawyers would have enough connections and experience to land a job or perhaps start their own solo or small firm practice."

Probably not, actually, because they'll be competing with the next cohort from before, and the established practitioners from above.

" You are probably right that this is mostly a pipe dream right now, but as there is an increasing recognition of income inequality and the justice gap, perhaps there will be a growing impetus do to something about it."

Considering the massive uphill political battles this would require, and the ability of the right to block things for decades, betting one's future on this is a fool's bet.

JillyfromPhilly

David,

Let me get this straight. I believe you have stated the following positions:

Existing law schools have no obligation to refrain from flooding the legal market with indebted graduates because we live in a free market economy and there is no legal way for law schools to limit their enrollments to match the demand for new attorneys.

Law schools should feel free to admit any applicant that has a reasonable probability of success in law school, regardless of the poor employment outcomes those students will eventually face because law schools are not guarantors of employment.

New law schools should either not open, or they should not expand their enrollments quickly because they do not have national reputations or large alumni bases that can serve as a pipeline for jobs. The lack of a national reputation and large alumni results in graduates of those schools having poor employment outcomes.

Do I have that right?

- A couple questions:

If we live in a free market economy where everyone should be responsible for their own decisions, why shouldn't new law schools open and expand at the rate of demand? About 80% of applicants are currently being admitted to at least one law school. Should applicant levels return to 2004 levels, where 100,000 people applied, we are going to need a whole lot more law schools to enroll the 80,000 admittees, right?

How many current law schools have a national reputation with large alumni bases that serve as a pipeline for entry level jobs?

Thanks.

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