Lounge readers may recall the thread from February on whether we are sustaining a "VAP trap" by sustaining so many VAP programs at a time when most think the market for tenure-track jobs at American law schools is likely to contract significantly.
That post led to an avalanche of comments from (among others) current VAPs about their situations. One commenter offered in the comments to survey fellow VAPS, and I offered to publish the survey results here.
The organizer of the survey sent me the results this morning. They are below. Please don't ask me questions about them; I am simply presenting what was sent to me. If the person who ran the survey monitors this thread, s/he may (or may not) wish to respond to questions.
(Anyone wishing to dredge up issues about confidentiality of commenter identities and the like should first consider this article in yesterday's NY Times.)
1. Where are you currently a VAP or Fellow? How long is your stay at this school?
Where:
US News 1-20 3
US News 21-40 2
US News 41-60 6
US News 61-80 1
US News 81-100 1
Tier 2 0
Tier 4 1
Length of stay:
1 year 1
2 years 9
3 or more years 0
I am not a VAP or Fellow: 5
One person commented that (s)he had previously been a VAP at
a top 40 school.
2. Where did you get your JD?
Yale 2
Stanford 0
Harvard 2
Columbia 0
Chicago 1
NYU 3
Virginia 0
Michigan 0
Berkeley 1
Penn 0
Duke 0
Northwestern 0
Cornell 0
Georgetown 1
US News 15-30 3
US News 31-50 1
Tier 2 3
Tier 3 1
Tier 4 0
3. Do you have another advanced degree, e.g., an LL.M. and/or Ph.D.? If so, from
where? Similarly, did you do a clerkship? If so, which court?
Advanced degree:
LLM 6
PhD 4
Clerkship
state trial court 3
state appellate court 0
state supreme court 0
federal district court 3
SCOTUS 0
Comments (which asked for additional info about the degree-awarding institution): Temple, Chicago, foreign JD and LLM, USN 1-10, USN 10-20, MA from top 10, and "Clerkship - other")
4. How many years of practice experience did you have prior to going on the
market, exclusive of clerkships and fellowships?
None 1
1-3 years 9
4-6 years 7
7-10 years 2
10+ years 0
5. What are your area(s) of expertise, i.e., your primary research/teaching
area(s)?
Property 1
Torts 3
Contracts 2
Civ pro 5
Crim law/procedure 2
Con law 3
Evidence 3
PR 1
Civil/human rights 3
Corporations 1
Business law 1
Non-business civil
specialty (e.g., IP,
environmental,
T&E, health, labor,
employment,
immigration,
election, etc.) 6
Critical theory 1
Legislation/admin 1
Law and religion 1
Remedies 1
Other 4
6. When you went on the market, how many scholarly publications did you have?
1 2
2 6
3 1
4 4
5+ 4
7. How many AALS interviews did you have? Please include first-round interviews
that you had before the conference in DC.
1-3 1
4-6 5
7-10 7
11-15 1
16-20 2
21+ 1
8. How many callbacks did you have?1-3 12
4-6 4
7+ 0
9. Did you receive any offers? If so, why did you decline?
Yes 4
No 13
All of the people who declined said they did so because of location and spouse/family.
10. Did you receive support in your TT position job search?
|
I had support from my host institution on the programmatic level |
0 |
|
I had support from individual faculty at my host institution, but not on the programmatic level |
5 |
|
I had support from my host institution on the programmatic level and from individual faculty |
6 |
|
I had no support from my host institution |
2 |
|
I had support from my JD institution on the programmatic level |
2 |
|
I had support from individual faculty at my JD institution, but not on the programmatic level |
4 |
|
I had support from my JD institution on the programmatic level and from individual faculty |
9 |
|
I had no support from my JD institution |
0 |
|
I had support from my LLM/PhD institution on the programmatic level |
0 |
|
I had support from individual faculty at my LLM/PhD institution, but not on the programmatic level |
4 |
|
I had support from my LLM/PhD institution on the programmatic level and from individual faculty |
1 |
|
I had no support from my LLM/PhD institution |
1 |
Additional comments:
- I eventually got another offer from a Legal Studies department at a Business School (separate from the AALS process) and am accepting that offer.
- On the market twice: 2011 AALS + VAP, 2012 VAP only. Survey reflects both. PhD was in a different field, so no help there for legal academy placement.
- You're welcome to discount my responses if I don't qualify as an "unplaced" VAP. [Editor's note: I believe this is from a person who said (s)he accepted a non-TT offer in a better location for his/her family.]
If people like this aren't placing, I'm glad my current institution is discontinuing my program after I leave.
Posted by: Tier 2 VAP | April 11, 2013 at 01:05 PM
I conducted the survey, and I'll monitor this thread to try to respond to questions. Thanks to Eric for posting.
Posted by: another VAP out in the cold | April 11, 2013 at 01:59 PM
Super interesting. Thank you for compiling, AVOITC!
Posted by: one of the vaps | April 11, 2013 at 05:37 PM
You're welcome.
Posted by: another VAP out in the cold | April 11, 2013 at 09:57 PM
So I'm confused by Question 9. Did 4 people receive offers (some of which were declined) and 13 no offers, or did 4 people receive and accept offers and 13 either did not receive and offer or rejected the offers they received? Based on "All of the people who declined," it sounds like the latter because all is more than one and I find it hard to believe that only, at most, two VAPs who filled out your survey accepted a TT position.
Posted by: VAPplicant | April 12, 2013 at 12:10 PM
Responding to VAPplicant's question, from my read of the survey responses, the first description is correct. A total of 19 people completed the survey. Of those, 13 people did not receive any offers at all, 4 people received TT offers but declined them because of family/location, and 2 people did not respond to the question. Of the 4 people who received but declined TT offers, one of them took a non-TT academic position in a better location. Another person (not sure whether part of the 4 or part of the 13, or perhaps someone who didn't answer question #9 at all) took an offer at a business school.
So, my conclusion from all of this is that of the 19 people who completed the survey, only 2 of them definitely know what they'll be doing professionally in 2 months.
In case anyone else wants to complete the survey, it's still available at http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/DHDZTNN.
Posted by: another VAP out in the cold | April 12, 2013 at 01:37 PM
Sorry - here's a link that works (the comment upload mistakenly included the period in the link):
http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/DHDZTNN
Posted by: another VAP out in the cold | April 12, 2013 at 01:38 PM
Thanks, that's helpful. Though it only makes me more skeptical about how reflective the survey is of VAPs and fellows who hit the market last year. I wonder what type of selection bias exists for filling out this survey, and what about the 60-70 other current VAPs and fellows who didn't answer Question 9 (or presumably take complete the survey at all)?
I'm no Pollyanna as to the prospects for VAPs. And I think that the VAP Trap comment thread raised a lot of important questions for anyone considering a VAP. But I question whether it is as bad as those out in the cold make it seem.
Posted by: VAPplicant | April 12, 2013 at 01:49 PM
VAPlicant, the survey was described in the earlier thread as intended to collect information only from those VAPs and fellows who did not place in the last hiring cycle.
Posted by: Anon | April 12, 2013 at 04:24 PM
Thanks, Anon. I must have missed that when the thread got taken over by the law school scammers.
Posted by: VAPplicant | April 12, 2013 at 05:46 PM
FWIW, though the survey was specifically designed for VAPs who did not place, I think the hiring report over at Prawfs and various comments there, here, and at other blogs indicate just how bad it is. Sure, some folks placed, but lots of folks didn't, and the impression that getting a VAP was getting a foot in the door to a TT placement simply is not true any more. Honestly, I think the opposite is true. VAP candidates might get the VAP placement, but with the market in its current state, I think getting a VAP does not in any way mean that you're going to place in a TT position.
If I'd known this when I decided to go down this path, I never would've done it. Taking a VAP means tanking a prior career for many of us. It's going to be ridiculously and unnecessarily challenging for us to overcome that obstacle.
Posted by: brr... | April 15, 2013 at 11:02 AM
FYI - another person filled out the survey and s/he also didn't get any offers. So, Q9 totals are now 4 declined offers because of poor location, 2 non-answers, and 14 people without any offers at all.
Posted by: another VAP out in the cold | April 15, 2013 at 11:35 AM
I didn't fill out the survey, but FWIW, I'm another (soon-to-be-former) VAP who received no TT offers. My responses to other questions would be pretty consistent with what's reported here.
Posted by: Make it 15... | April 16, 2013 at 08:59 AM
I got no offers through the regular process but have recently gotten 4 letters/calls about jobs for next year. Two rejections and two interviews. I am flexible on the business vs law school front, and also geographically flexible. But if you are too, hope is not yet dead for next year.
Posted by: Tier 2 VAP | April 16, 2013 at 10:41 AM
Right, there is a problem. We've identified that. But for folks who want to be law prawfs, what is the solution?
Would we be better to wait out the disturbance in the market and keep practicing before going straight on the meat market. Should we only accept a T10 fellowship or VAP? Should we recognize and assume the dangers of taking VAPs further down? Or should we just resign to a life in practice before we are overqualified and underexperienced?
Posted by: VAPplicant | April 16, 2013 at 01:15 PM
"But for folks who want to be law prawfs, what is the solution?"
I don't think there is a solution. People who want to be law profs (or at least those who aren't in the elite part of the elite, like SCOTUS clerks or top-5-school-plus-econ-PhDs) just need to understand that it's unlikely to happen. Just like a lot of aspiring non-law academics do when they decide to get a PhD despite the fact that they're unlikely to find a TT job.
Different people will do different things with that realization. Some will decide to stay in practice. Some will still try to go into academia, but they'll hedge their bets by staying in practice while on the market. And some will gamble despite the bad odds and do a VAP.
Posted by: No longer a prawf wannabe | April 16, 2013 at 02:41 PM
Not a VAP, but I took a similar term-limited job and went on the market last fall (totally unsuccessfully).
I've been putting out feelers since about February when it looked like it was a good idea to find a "real" job. The first offer just came in. It's from a satellite office of a national firm in my "home" market (a non-NYC/LA/SF/DC/Chicago city -- along the lines of Seattle or Minneapolis). The pay is a bit below market, but it's still a lot.
So don't lose hope. The legal market is crappy, but people are hiring.
Posted by: Ray of hope | April 23, 2013 at 11:14 AM