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December 11, 2009

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Patrick S. O'Donnell

I'm delighted you're having a wonderful time in Haifa. Concidentally, I have been reading about the history of Haifa, in particular, about its ethnic cleansing (de-Arabization) through implementation of Plan Dalet ('Plan D') by the Haganah (with the Irgun and the Stern Gang) in 1948. Specifically, this de-Arabiization of the city took place under Operation "Cleansing the Leaven" (the Palestinians being the bread and the flour) on Passover's eve, 21 April. What Palestinian notables remained after this operation were transferred from various parts of the city "into one single neighborhood, the crammed and small quarter of Wadi Nisnas, one of the city's poorest areas," the transfer process being an exemplary instance of ghettoization.

I was re-reading this and related material (by Ilan Pappe, among others) in response to Orly's paean to David Ben-Gurion over at Prawfs.

dan m.

Patrick, I do not understand why some people always have an urge to blacken Israel, at times ridiculously out of context. What you mention is highly controversial. But much more importantly, it is totally irrelevant. It is as relevant as the fact that you are dwelling in an area that "fell bloodlessly to a battalion of American soldiers under John C. Frémont on December 27, 1846, during the Mexican-American War" and became part of the expanding USA after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (a peace treaty that was dictated by the United States and provided for the Mexican Cession). History is a giddy thing.

Patrick S. O'Donnell

dan,

At least here you're not anonymous: thanks.

That you would interpret my comment solely in terms of an effort to "blacken Israel" only reinforces my sense that such things need to be said (that kind of 'black and white' thinking ill serves you).

My motivation can be explained by the sorts of reasons provided by Stanley Cohen in his States of Denial: Knowing about Atrocities and Suffering (2001) and Norman G. Finkelstein in Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History (2008 ed.).

What are you afraid of? The post is about Kim's experience in Haifa. I'm speaking to some things I learned about the recent history of Haifa, having never been there. Perhaps Kim can speak to these things, perhaps not, but's it's just a blog post and just a blog comment, and so I think "relevance" is in some degree in the eye of the beholder. To cite a similar case (insofar as I can recall it): when Roger Alford of Opinio Juris once visited Israel, readers such as myself queried him about the experiences of Palestinians, although that was not the topic of his post. Roger responded with first-hand experiences, including the statements of those whom he met.

Your historical analogy is absolutely irrelevant inasmuch as there is not an ongoing conflict of the sort in your historical case on par with that which todaty exists between the Israelis and the Palestinians, and a refusal to appreciate and understand the history of that conflict has and will impede any efforts to bring conflict resolution to the region. If you are going to resort to an analogy, items in the analogy should at least be comparable in the relevant sense(s).

dan m.

First, I think you confuse me with someone else. I am anonymous "here", and have not responded to your comments elsewhere.

Second, the analogy is sound. The fact that a conflict still exists in the middle east, but not on US soil, may be attributed to the fact that Israel, as opposed to the United States, has never demanded total capitulation and disenfranchisement of its enemies. The Palestinians, as opposed to Mexicans and Native Americans, can still vindicate their rights.

Paul Horwitz

I have no dog on the fight on the question of "blackening" Israel or not. But, Patrick, it does seem to me the comment is more off-topic here than it was with respect to the Ben-Gurion post. There, Orly posted about the religious and literary interests of a political figure and you wrote to add that there are other aspects of his biography and character (which is not to say that the two sets of traits can't coexist in one person, of course). Here, Kim spent 100 percent of the post discussing the conference itself, not the city in which it took place.

Of course you're free to argue if you wish that it is wrong to visit this city at all, or to do so without commenting on its history, or something of the sort, just as I suppose it's wrong to take a Caribbean vacation without writing about poverty, or to attend a conference in Mexico without writing about terrorism and narco-terrorism, or to (speaking as a Canadian) visit Cuba without talking about political repression, or to visit New York without opining on Columbia's land-grab, or to go to a football game in Alabama without holding forth on the civil rights movement, and on and on. You haven't done so, I should add. But then your comment is not so much relevant to the post as it is a kind of "speaking of which" addendum to a post that's not really speaking of the "which" you have in mind, which gives rise to the previous commenter's suggestion (again disregarding the "blackening Israel" point; what is it to me if Israel is either lauded or blackened?) that you used this post as an occasion to ride a hobby-horse.

Kathy

What's the big deal?

Someone says "hey, I just got back from doing X in place Y."

Someone responds with, "hey, I was reading about place Y, did you know . . ."

That's how conversations happen, right . . . which is the whole point of a blog, no?

Kim Krawiec

Thanks for the bit of history, Patrick. We've had no chance at all for sightseeing yet, so it's possible that when we finally do, this is a part of Haifa's history that people will point out or discuss. So far, though, I've really spent all the time teaching, presenting papers, attending workshops, and the like. Well, and today there is the spa resort . . .

Roger Dennis

Kim--take in the Bahai gardens and shrine..fantastic..r

Kim Krawiec

Thanks, Roger! It's on the agenda for this week -- looks amazing in photos.

Dan Markel

For what it's worth, I'm not the "Dan M." here.

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